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No two ways about it October 25, 2007

Posted by Teen Atheist in anecdotes, friends, issues, rants.
Tags: , , , , , ,

Fred finally got to read the post I wrote about his homophobia, and as expected, he didn’t like what I had to say. He confronted me, demanding an apology.

Fred: “First, I talk to you on the assumption that what I share to you is kept between us, and sorry, but I find what you’ve said to be rather condescending.”

Basically, he didn’t like it when I called him out on his homophobic bullshit on his blog, and now he doesn’t like it that I called him out on his homophobic bullshit on my blog. He also called me a bigot for the way I write about him on this blog, and said that I was also “rude and disrespectful” towards him.

Well, go ahead. Call me self-righteous and condescending and whatever you damn well please, because I probably am, but if we continue to be tolerant of that idiotic “homosexuality is a choice” mentality, then when will the bigotry end? So no, Fred, I don’t respect your opinion and you can’t make me, because I won’t stop bitching until people treat gays with the respect they deserve.

He also blamed me for bringing up the actual topic with him and confronting him on it, because he supposedly didn’t want to talk about it with me.

Fred: “I tried to back down so many times, because I didn’t want to talk about it. I knew you were sensitive to that crap, and I knew you’d disagree with whatever I have to say.”

See, now who’s being condescending?

Fred: “It would’ve been fine with me had you not taken my opinion like shit. You never did respect my opinions when I disagree with you.”

We jumped right back into the debate, because Fred claims I misunderstood him the last time.

Fred: “Look, this stems from the difference in belief of what you and me see people as. From what I could tell, you see people as a bunch of chemicals just thrown together to make meat that moves. I see people as a being of will. Above the capacity of one’s own physical brain, humans have a will, and I believe that a person’s will is the only limitation he has in anything. See, serial killers are people who kill a bunch of people for arbitrary reasons, without direct benefit from the act of murder; so, to many psychologists, serial killers are known to have parts of their brain that just make them go that way. You know that, right? Now, would you argue that a serial killer just kills people because he’s been born with an extra large adrenal gland, or because he lacks the will to control his deficiencies?”
TA: “The latter; but see, I find it hilarious that you’re comparing gay sex to murder.
Fred: “Then there’s no point in reasoning out any further.”
TA: “Allow me to repeat myself: who do gay men hurt when they’re fucking? Humankind? See, here are my basic rules: if no one else is getting hurt, then what’s the problem?”
Fred: “Well, that’s your belief, and I’ve no right to question as much, but it’s not the act of having sex that bothers me, it’s their being homosexual in the first place, because as can be observed, MOST homosexuals arise from trauma, and I believe that it’s weakness for one to simply resort to homosexuality. It’s kind of the same as depression, or suicidal tendencies.”

So, you don’t mind the gay sex part, just that they’re actually being gay, because homosexuality is…a mental illness? Wow, that’s much less offensive!

I actually do believe that human beings are of will, too, but I don’t think gayness is something you have to exercise control or will over. Because it’s not wrong.

Fred: “Okay, in being gay, it is only wrong if it is an exhibition of past trauma. There. That’s it. Otherwise, you can have whatever you wish.”
TA: “Wow. do you blame rape victims for experiencing PTSD too?”
Fred: “Sure.”

Then I just laughed in his face, and he called me an ass. Honestly, is there anything I could possibly say to make him look worse than he does? He does a pretty good job of it himself!

Fred: “I’m very much inclined to reason, and simple reason dictates that what I believe is true, it takes something else to believe in what you believe in.”

“Reason.” Heh-heh. (And rationalists all over the world weep at the misuse of this term.) It’s reasonable to not have any respect for gay people. Oh wait — Fred doesn’t dislike all gay people, only the ones who experienced some form of trauma when they were younger.

TA: “What’s the point of all this then? Why did you confront me? What do you want me to do?”
Fred: “Have a little tact?”

[Note: This is hilarious coming from Fred, because he’s one of the most obnoxious people I know. He’s the kind of guy who likes to rub it in my face that Kurt Cobain sucks, just because he knows I’m a Nirvana fan. (What?)]

TA: “I think you’re a bigot, as do my readers. I’m just being honest, dude, because I find your views outrageous.”
Fred: “Well, you shouldn’t have posted it there in the first place.”
TA: “Why not? It’s my blog!”
Fred: “Because I like to keep my opinions to myself, and those who I entrust them to.”
TA: “I’m glad I posted it, because I think that people need to know that this way of looking at things is wrong, and it’s hurtful to gay people.”

He then went on a tirade on how I was wrong to be “thinking in absolutes,” in that there is an actual right and wrong in this debate, instead of respecting the opinion that gay people who couldn’t overcome their past traumas are weak.

Still, of all the dumb things he’s said in this exchange, this has got to be one of the funniest:

TA: “Have you read the sources that Martin posted? From the American Psychological Association? You think the APA are bullshitters, too?”
Fred: “If they’re not in paper, they’re not worth reading.”
TA: “It’s the bloody APA, read it before you talk to me.”
Fred: “And, please, that’s America.”
TA: “And so?”
Fred: “Everyone in America is touchy-feely with everything.”
TA: “You’re discrediting the APA because they’re touchy-feely? Nice rebuttal!”

Seriously. He claims to be making his arguments on “reason,” when the only basis he has for them is anecdotal. I’ve got sources from a national association of psychologists, and their opinion is worth shit because they’re touchy-feely?

Fred: “Fine then, I discredit them as the society and culture in their nation pressures them to believe in such. And I never said I wanted you to believe in what I have to say, that’s why I didn’t even want to talk to you about this.”
TA: “I know, you wanted me to ‘have some tact.’ Well, I’m sorry, but there’s no being tactful about this, because I hate how gay people are treated. They have it nearly as bad as atheists.”
Fred: “You’re too close-minded about being open-minded.”

He’s upset because I’m supposedly making him out to be this evil, fag-murdering monster on my blog, when really, I haven’t said anything that makes him look worse than he is. All I did was cut-and-paste his quotes to my blog.

He insists that the way he thinks is okay because he treats gay people the same as everybody else. I likened that to the way my parents treat me: They don’t openly hate on my atheism, except for the occasional backhanded comments, and they clearly believe me to have no sense of values. It’s not as bad as some people, but it’s still very offensive to me.

Fred: “If I would find out that a person resorts to homosexuality as a means of escaping something in his mind, then that’s something I don’t like about him.”

TA: “How is what you’re doing to gay people NOT like what my parents are doing to me?”

Fred: “Does that matter?”

TA: “Yes, because they’re prejudiced, and so are you.”

Fred: “You’re forcing it that I prejudize [sic].”

TA: “Well, you haven’t proven me wrong, have you? Or do you think my parents aren’t being prejudiced towards me?”

Fred: “I don’t think they’re as prejudiced as you see them, and whatever prejudice they have for you, you’re doing the same to me.”

TA: “Are. They. Prejudiced?”

Fred: “In aspects, yes.”

TA: “Then so are you.”

Fred: “But it’s more of a no, really.”

I laughed. I laughed out loud, and I also wanted to kick his teeth in, because what he just said was both hilarious and upsetting. It’s more of a “no?”

This is why I blog about you, Fred. Because if I let this mentality slide, then people will think it’s okay to group homosexuals in with depressives and serial killers. People will think it’s okay to secretly dislike fags and atheists, just as long as you treat them normally. Well, it’s not. I do believe there’s an absolute right in this debate, and it is this: acceptance. And not just pretending you accept them, but really believing them to be as human and normal as the rest of us.

Yes, I could probably have handled this with a little more tact, but this issue is something that I take to heart, and there are really no two ways about it — it angers me that people continue to think this way. Maybe you’re right, Fred, and I am being “just as bigoted and prejudiced” towards you as you are to gay people, but guess what? Ethnic minorities didn’t gain acceptance until people stood up and said “It’s NOT okay to hate.” So I’m not going to accept your opinion, and I’m not sorry for being “rude” and “tactless.” The occasion called for it.



1. jgrab1 - October 25, 2007

There are lots of hypocrites in this world, as well as people who have one set of logical rules that work for them and another set for others.

You, on the other hand, are unusually good at spotting hypocrisy and outing bullshit.

Keep up the good work!

2. Show-Ender - October 25, 2007

Hmm, maybe it’s time WE pay Fred a visit. Can we have his blog’s URL?

3. Teen Atheist - October 25, 2007

Thank you so much for that, John!

You, on the other hand, are unusually good at spotting hypocrisy and outing bullshit.

Hee, I love it! That is totally my new tagline: “Teen Atheist: Spotting hypocrisy and outing bullshit, one day at a time.” 😀

4. Teen Atheist - October 25, 2007

Show-Ender: I really appreciate the offer (and I’m quite tempted to take you up on that, tee-hee), but I have to keep every character in the story of my life anonymous. Fred’s the only person who knows my real identity behind the TA moniker, and he could easily out me to the world if he wanted to. But thanks, anyway! 🙂

5. overcaffein8d - October 29, 2007

i found the URL awhile back.

i’d say how, but i don’t think TA would like that.

but i think his name is [bleep].

6. Teen Atheist - October 29, 2007

Good God, overcaffein8d, I am in awe of your mad h4xx0rz skillz. XD You’re absolutely right. Please don’t comment on it, though — as much as I dislike him, I’d still like to maintain his anonymity.

7. Nicest Girl - October 30, 2007

Man, why can’t I have interesting conversations with people who disagree with me so I can write about it? Everyone I know agrees with most of my points-of-view. *huff*

8. Teen Atheist - October 31, 2007

Oh, Nicest Girl, how I wish I were you. Despite how assy Fred has been, he was still a friend of mine for a number of years, so it kind of sucks to have to end our friendship so acrimoniously over a difference in opinion. Be thankful you’re not in the same situation.

9. jgrab1 - October 31, 2007

Nicest Girl: Start talking to me about music or culture and I’m sure we’ll be disagreeing in minutes! 😀

10. DaFatalGigabyte - October 31, 2007

“Fred: “You’re too close-minded about being open-minded.””
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAh, give me his URL NOW I NEED IT. He’s a stupid jerk lol. Kidding. He completely destroyed his arguments there. That’s too bad.

He wasn’t saying homosexuality was bad when he used murder. That was a cop out on your part, taking something not in the realm of his argument, taking some irrelavant part of murder which wouldn’t change the debate. Let’s go with atheism. Someone chooses to be atheist, like homosexuality where it’s benevolent, and they are discriminated for it. Atheism usually comes from upbringing or from finally being ‘liberated’ somehow ‘miraculously’. It is more in the realm of the mind though. I guess it wouldn’t work then.

‘Homosexuality as involuntary’ though swings on the hinges of seeing if it is biological. If it’s biological, it’s not a choice. It’s only a choice if you’re going for someone who you aren’t attracted to. Basically your system decides who you’re attracted to and some bodies choose the same sex for some reason(this is rediculous because attraction is for the purposes of reproduction, putting an ‘intrusive thing’ into an ‘inwards thing’). I haven’t seen any conclusive evidence of this. Maybe if some chemical affects attraction then having an imbalance in these hormones causes a different attraction. In which case it is more like a disorder but a disorder I can certainly live with as like you say, it’s unlike murder.

Maybe background, or environment, but that makes it something of the mind. In other words, it kind of is a choice but the choice involves environmental factors. Like why someone murders possibly is because they grew up in a vengeful part of town and learned that behavior. Or they do drugs because they want to escape. Fred is then saying that it is weak to succumb to these factors of upbringing and environment. Which is rediculous. He does it all the time. When you are changed in your mind in some subconscious way, it’s almost as strong as being biological. The younger you absorbed the subconscious effect, the harder it is to change without hyponosis. It can be changed but if it’s not harming anyone, who cares? If we were able to change our subconscious easily we’d be touching hot stoves more often than if the subconscious was stronger, like it actually is.

You weren’t rude when you argued with him unless you didn’t show everything. He probably meant you were rude when you put the conversations with him on your blog. But you kept it anonymous so what does it matter. He was under the assumption that you’d keep it anonymous, lmao.

11. Teen Atheist - October 31, 2007

You weren’t rude when you argued with him unless you didn’t show everything. He probably meant you were rude when you put the conversations with him on your blog. But you kept it anonymous so what does it matter. He was under the assumption that you’d keep it anonymous, lmao.

Yes, exactly. And yet he’s the kind of guy who likes to tell people, “If you don’t have the balls to be hated, then you don’t deserve to be loved.”

Kind of ironic, really.

12. Anonymous - November 2, 2007

i think that a lot of what fred said is missing the point. whether or not homosexuality is involuntary – although as you said, researches claim that sexual orientation is determined by the time you’re six and is irreversable- it’s not wrong. As a fag hag, i really don’t have a problem with lesbians and gays. i always thought it was involuntary, but, if in some corner of my best friend’s psyche, she chose to be a lesbian, is there a problem with that? economically speaking they’re doing their part in population control, and as you said they aren’t hurting anyone!

13. Savannah Marlow - June 3, 2012

Obviously you re not disagreeing with me here, I just thought I d lengthen my comments section LOL.

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